Thanks for a great site!

[jmurren]

Just wanted to say that I've been on a 3 year quest to be able to bake really good bread. Can't begin to tell you how much I've read and experimented, but I can tell you that I'll give this site the credit for the very best bread I've baked in those 3 years. For the benefit of other "Questers", let me share sev bad habits/assumptions that kept me from success these 3 years:
* Thinking that all loaf bread dough had to be managable! I guess I'm just not quick to pay attention, because as I reread Reinhart (Crust and Crumb), he certainly does note the need for lots of moisture. Still, he doesn't suggest just how "unmanagable" a wet dough can be!
* Thinking that it is not possible to overknead dough! I was such an aggressive kneader that I would eventually reach a point with my dough where the surface would begin tearing - and the more I kneaded, the less elastic the dough would be.

My last dough was made following Dan's suggestions for "big holes" (something unobtainable using managable doughs) and was fantastic! Thanks Dan. However, I'm still uncomfortable with the amount of flour I'm using on the board when I give it the requisite kneads - unless I use a goodly amount, it literally sticks to everything (board, scraper, hands, etc.). I fear I'm using too much flour on the board - yes,no? Or is it just a need to limit the flour and get used to working with truly sticky dough?

I'm currently using a long lived polish as a starter - I actually started it with a tiny pinch of dry yeast in a wet starter, intending to use it all in the next baking. But I was fascinated with how strong the rise became after 3 days, and I've been saving miniscule amounts from each session, and using it as one would a sourdough starter. It's not really sour, at least not yet, but I believe it gives my bread better flavor. I use a small amount of yeast in the dough build (1/4 tsp) and go for long, slow rises. I also am using overnight (sometimes two) fermentation in the fridge (in oiled plastic grocery bags) and find that it does a great job of building in those big holes in prep for the final stretching and rising.

Oh yeah, Dan, I must also thank you for your admonition NOT to deflate the dough entirely after the initial rise(s), something I did habitually. Quite a difference!

Love this forum - Keep up the good work.
John

[lepard]

Hello John,

"I'm still uncomfortable with the amount of flour I'm using on the board when I give it the requisite kneads - unless I use a goodly amount, it literally sticks to everything (board, scraper, hands, etc.). I fear I'm using too much flour on the board - yes,no?"

Yes

"Or is it just a need to limit the flour and get used to working with truly sticky dough?"

Yes again

What I advise home bakers to do now is to use oil, rather that flour, on the surface for the initial gentle kneading. Then, when you are more comfortable with this type of hydration in the dough, you can switch back to a little flour.
Oil will act as a release, and stop things sticking so much at first. Too much flour will affect the recipe balance, and unless that is considered when the recipe is written (as in the case of many old recipes) the dough can be too dry unintentionally.

Your workflow should go something like this:
1. Mix the dough in the bowl with your hands quickly and evenly, trying to get the moisture evenly combined with the flour, squeezing the dough through your hands to work the ingredients together. Sticky dough is good.

2. Clean your worksurface and rub a tablespoon of oil into the surface to cover the kneading area.

3. Rub a little oil on your hands and rub that in well. Pat your hands over the surface of the dough in the bowl.

4. Flip the bowl over and upside down over the oiled area, letting the far side of the bowl rest on the worksurface. Slip your hands under the edge of the bowl closest to you, and scrape it away from the bowl so that it plonks down evenly onto the oiled area. Don't hold the bowl vertically so that the dough tumbles down like a waterfall - you want every twist and turn you give the dough to be considered and measured.

Remember, the apparent ease of the practiced mum or home baker only appears carefree. If the result is good, you can bet the technique is good too. Practice makes things appear easier than they are, and I suspect there is more than a hint of misogyny behind the notion of women baking quick and easy and excellent cakes and breads in the kitchen. Housework is still not acknowledged as work.

5. Knead the dough lightly for 10 seconds. That's all. For me that equates to 12 light push, fold and rotate moves, stopping just as the dough begins to adhere to the oiled surface. Return the dough to the bowl and leave for 10 minutes.

6. Repeat as above, leave for 10 minutes.

7. Repeat as above, leave for 30 minutes.

And then begin your folding every 3/4hr - 1hr. Sometimes, for a naturally leavened bread, I mix the dough about 10pm (say on a Friday night), leave it covered in the refrigerator, then at 8am take it out, give it a few folds over the next 2 or 3 hours (until the aeration in clear in the dough), then divide, shape, let rise until almost double, then bake.

Your starter sounds great. But just try to have a go at making a starter without the addition of yeast. It will develop a different character over time. The trick is simply to add fresh organic flour, and clean tap water, every day. And it will ferment. Try this:

Making the leaven

Here is a recipe, or perhaps more correctly, a set of ingredients and steps that will promote fermentation in a leaven of flour and water. Though fermentation will occur simply with flour and water, I have added a few other ingredients that I like and have grown accustomed to. Recently, I have tried making the leaven from the start solely with organic rye flour (using slightly less that the suggested white flour amounts) and water, but following the schedule given below. It worked a treat. But here is the one I've become fond of.

Day 1
150g water
2 tsp rye flour
2 tsp strong white flour
2 tsp currants or raisins
2 tsp live lowfat yoghurt


Mix all of the ingredients in a small kilner jar. Cover and leave at room temperature (20C) for 24 hours

Day 2
50g water
2 tsp rye flour
2 tsp strong white flour

By this stage there will be no perceptible change, though some yeasts will have already multiplied. The surface will look shiny as the solids separate from the water and sink down in the jar. Stir the above ingredients into the leaven, starting with the water, followed by the dry ingredients. Cover and leave again for 24 hours.

Day 3

100g water
4 tsp strong white flour
4 tsp rye flour

By this time the raisins (or currants) will have started to break down and you will notice a coffee coloured ring around them as they sit in the mixture. Also, there will be the odd pin hole of fermentation on the surface. Add the water, stir well to combine, then add the flour and stir again. The mixture will look frothy, but this is simply from the stirring. Nearly there.

Day 4
100g water
125g strong white flour

By this time there should be the froth of fermentation beginning, though only the vaguest hint of acidity in the aroma. Remove 3/4 of the mixture, and throw away. Add the water and stir well. Next, pour the mixture through a tea strainer to remove the raisins (or currants), then put the strained liquid back into the kilner jar. Add the flour and stir again. Cover and leave another 24 hours.

Day 5
100g water
125g strong white flour

The fermentation should be clearly evident, and the aroma starting to become acid. You can first notice this the moment you remove the lid from the jar, though it disappears quickly. Remove 3/4 and throw away. Add the water and stir well so that the mixture has thinned evenly. Stir in the flour so that you have a thick paste. I prefer to keep the refreshment slightly heavier on flour than water, as this slows the fermentation and stops the leaven rising and falling too quickly. Cover and leave another 24 hours.

Day 6 onwards
Take the lid off the jar, and you will see the mixture bubbling. Each day as you continue to remove leaven for baking, replacing it with an equivalent amount of flour and water, the aroma will become stronger and more sharply acidic.

To store the leaven for use
If used regularly, some bakers keep it at room (or bakery) temperature, others keep it chilled at 12C - 15C. Regular refreshment, for at least 2 days prior to baking, is needed to keep the leaven active and in prime condition.

To store for use another time
To store it without using for longer periods, which will force some of the yeast cells to remain dormant and some to die, leave the leaven covered and undisturbed at the back of the refrigerator (at 4C). As it sits unrefreshed, the leaven will separate into a dark coffee-coloured liquid, which sit on top, and a solid grey mixture that will lie in the bottom of the jar.

To revive the leaven
Carefully take 1 or 2 tsp of the grey putty-like leaven from the bottom of the stored jar, and stir this into a fresh quantity of 100g (80%) water and 125g (100%) white flour. Leave at room temperature for 24 hours, then remove 3/4 and refresh once more with 100g of water and 125g white flour. Leave another 24 hours, by which time the mixture should have fermented again. For the following refreshment, add sufficient fresh flour and water to make enough leaven for your baking. Stir well, cover for 24 hours, and use in baking the following day.

Really glad you like the site. Plesae post photos of your breads, I'd love to see them.

regards

Dan

[jmurren]

Thanks Dan, for your reply. I'll certainly follow your continued suggestions in the hope of continued improvement, although I'm delighted with my current results, thanks to your instruction.

Yes, I'd be happy to send a pic or two. I failed to mention that the look of the crust alone was so much better than other previous loaves - I would guess there's a relationship between looks and taste!

Thanks again for your willingness to help, Dan.

John